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Mind/Body Continuum

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  • Mind/Body Continuum

    Putting this in Health for a civil and thoughtful discussion. If it gets hijacked, I will request the admin shut it down...even if Admin is one of the hijackers.

    I think there are, very rarely, people who are transgendered. I have known at least two (now very old, as in, older than me) who felt wrong in their natal bodies from the time they were toddlers. Both transitioned as adults, one relatively early in adulthood and one in middle age, after trying every possible "fix." Both are much happier as women. When I first started hearing about the whole issue, I read Conundrum, by Jan Morris, and I recommend it for anyone who wants to understand the matter.

    It is unlikely, IMO, that very many people genuinely experience what Jan Morris did, a sense that started almost from infancy of having a defective body. That is very different from having a different reaction from most people to other bodies (sexual orientation). Both appear to be innate, but manifest very differently.

    I'm no expert, but I believe that the vast majority of people, particularly pre-teens and teens, who identify as "transgender" or "non-binary" or "gender-non-conforming" would disappear if we were not plagued with residual sex-role stereotyping and behavioral expectations, as well as anti-gay bias. I know at least one young woman who thought she was transgendered until she found a friend group who accepted her as she was, which allowed her to accept that she is actually gay.

    Growing up in the 50s and 60s, if I had not been allowed by my family to engage in "boys' play," such as sandlot baseball and football and playing Army; dress in jeans and tee-shirts (outside of school); and help Dad work on cars and boats and refuse to learn domestic skills, etc., I might have wanted to be a boy. I never did want to be a boy. I just wanted people at school to STFU with the "girls can't be doctors" and "girls don't play drums" and "girls can't play Little League; play softball."

    So, maybe in a different world, there would be almost no transgendered people, but I don't think there would be zero. There are parents (intact heterosexual couples) who very definitely did not encourage, or even contemplate, that their child might be trans, but were forced to learn about a whole new reality when their darling baby boy, with no adult encouragement whatsoever, tries to amputate his penis because it's "wrong." Not because he's been chastised for playing with it, not because he has no male role model, just because he experiences it as a physical defect on his body.

    Now, hormones theoretically could change the child's self-perception in the future, so I have reservations about making irreversible physical changes in very young kids. We often delay such things. We tell the child who hates his/her nose, "Wait until your head has finished growing, and then you can have surgery." We tell a child who detests wearing glasses, "You can get contacts when you're old enough to put them in and take care of them yourself." Doctors usually will not do breast reduction, augmentation or reshaping (and there are some really unfortunate situations in which breasts cause neck and back pain/arthritis or just make it impossible to buy clothes that fit properly) until a girl has finished growing.

    OTOH, there are conditions that are more amenable to a surgical "fix" if done young. Correcting club foot, for example.

    Knowing the trials that trans people have, I cannot understand anyone encouraging or brainwashing a child to believe s/he is trans. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I see it as perhaps a form of Munchausen's by proxy.

    Mainly, I don't think yelling, "They're sick in the head!" is likely to make the issue go away. Mainly, I don't think that what an adult decides to do with his or her own body, even if I would find it abhorrent for myself. It's none of my business. If they are mentally ill, as long as they're not hurting anyone but themselves, what makes it my concern?
    "Since the historic ruling, the Lovings have become icons for equality. Mildred released a statement on the 40th anniversary of the ruling in 2007: 'I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, Black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about.'." - Mildred Loving (Loving v. Virginia)

  • #2
    I don't think we can possibly really understand it if we haven't been through it. I do agree that frothing at the mouth about these people being sickos is not right. It certainly isn't the representative of the "Christianity" that I've learned.
    Not where I breathe, but where I love, I live...
    Robert Southwell, S.J.

    Comment


    • #3
      Who here is frothing at the mouth? Being adamant about your beliefs does not make you a mad person. As to the OP, should we treat anorexics the same way? Accept them as they say they are?

      Mark
      Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

      "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

      Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

      Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 80zephyr View Post
        Who here is frothing at the mouth? Being adamant about your beliefs does not make you a mad person. As to the OP, should we treat anorexics the same way? Accept them as they say they are?

        Mark
        How about we at least accept them.
        Not where I breathe, but where I love, I live...
        Robert Southwell, S.J.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Celeste Chalfonte View Post

          Mainly, I don't think yelling, "They're sick in the head!" is likely to make the issue go away. Mainly, I don't think that what an adult decides to do with his or her own body, even if I would find it abhorrent for myself. It's none of my business. If they are mentally ill, as long as they're not hurting anyone but themselves, what makes it my concern?
          Live and let live.

          Progressives are destroying any concept of this though.

          There are real instances of trans people grooming kids. It's narcissistic and extremely damaging. Calling anyone who disagrees with them hateful bigots doesn't help either.
          "Faith is nothing but a firm assent of the mind : which, if it be regulated, as is our duty, cannot be afforded to anything but upon good reason, and so cannot be opposite to it."

          -John Locke

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by phillygirl View Post

            How about we at least accept them.
            By doing what? Agreeing with them?

            Mark
            Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

            "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

            Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

            Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by scott View Post

              Live and let live.

              Progressives are destroying any concept of this though.

              There are real instances of trans people grooming kids. It's narcissistic and extremely damaging. Calling anyone who disagrees with them hateful bigots doesn't help either.
              Truth. And that is the problem with the 8 year olds on a camping trip. Confusing them more is not helping.

              Mark
              Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

              "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

              Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

              Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 80zephyr View Post

                Truth. And that is the problem with the 8 year olds on a camping trip. Confusing them more is not helping.

                Mark
                How are you confusing them?
                Not where I breathe, but where I love, I live...
                Robert Southwell, S.J.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by phillygirl View Post
                  How are you confusing them?
                  By surrounding them with people that can influence them to keep acting out. Remember, a good number of them don't grow up to be transsexuals.

                  Mark
                  Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

                  "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

                  Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

                  Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 80zephyr View Post

                    Truth. And that is the problem with the 8 year olds on a camping trip. Confusing them more is not helping.

                    Mark
                    Ok, but that is a separate thread. This thread isn't about children going on a camping trip.


                    "Faith is nothing but a firm assent of the mind : which, if it be regulated, as is our duty, cannot be afforded to anything but upon good reason, and so cannot be opposite to it."

                    -John Locke

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I guess we really have to question what is gender. Is it our brain or our body parts…or something even more ethereal…our spirit. I don’t know. My brain has always matched up with my body in terms of gender. There wasn’t ever a day that I thought or wished I was male. Even in those moments that I believed that there were advantages to being male, I didn’t want to be male. But just because I’ve never had that experience doesn’t mean others don’t truly experience that.
                      Not where I breathe, but where I love, I live...
                      Robert Southwell, S.J.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by phillygirl;n362893[B
                        ]I guess we really have to question what is gender.[/B] Is it our brain or our body parts…or something even more ethereal…our spirit. I don’t know. My brain has always matched up with my body in terms of gender. There wasn’t ever a day that I thought or wished I was male. Even in those moments that I believed that there were advantages to being male, I didn’t want to be male. But just because I’ve never had that experience doesn’t mean others don’t truly experience that.
                        No, we don't. If we have to question reality, then all reality is open to review. If I feel I am a dog or a tree, it means that nature has put me in the wrong body?

                        Ridiculous. There are people that believe in their hearts they should be paralyzed, or should be missing a leg. Their feeling are just as strong. What about them?

                        Mark
                        Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

                        "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

                        Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

                        Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by scott View Post

                          Ok, but that is a separate thread. This thread isn't about children going on a camping trip.

                          I used it as an example.

                          Mark
                          Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

                          "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

                          Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

                          Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 80zephyr View Post

                            No, we don't. If we have to question reality, then all reality is open to review. If I feel I am a dog or a tree, it means that nature has put me in the wrong body?

                            Ridiculous. There are people that believe in their hearts they should be paralyzed, or should be missing a leg. Their feeling are just as strong. What about them?

                            Mark
                            I don't think that every delusion is reality. I don't know the answer here. I know I'd be heartbroken if one of my children had this issue. I'd be heartbroken because of the obvious anguish they are in. And if changing their body parts to match what their brain truly is telling them they are, then my response would be to love them and to try to support them as best I can. I recognize the physical issue of delaying hormones or surgery beyond puberty; however I would never be in favor of allowing such permanency during childhood. I spoke to a man a few weeks ago about two of his children. They are from two different wives. The oldest has now transitioned and by everyone's accounts is the happiest they've ever seen. The younger one (college aged) has not transitioned, hasn't decided if they will transition, but for now no longer feels comfortable as a "he" and is name changing to a feminine form and is using "they". I respect that the father appears to have accepted this and is simply letting them figure it out. I'm not sure as a parent what else you could do, if you truly are capable of unconditional love.
                            Not where I breathe, but where I love, I live...
                            Robert Southwell, S.J.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by phillygirl View Post

                              I don't think that every delusion is reality. I don't know the answer here. I know I'd be heartbroken if one of my children had this issue. I'd be heartbroken because of the obvious anguish they are in. And if changing their body parts to match what their brain truly is telling them they are, then my response would be to love them and to try to support them as best I can. I recognize the physical issue of delaying hormones or surgery beyond puberty; however I would never be in favor of allowing such permanency during childhood. I spoke to a man a few weeks ago about two of his children. They are from two different wives. The oldest has now transitioned and by everyone's accounts is the happiest they've ever seen. The younger one (college aged) has not transitioned, hasn't decided if they will transition, but for now no longer feels comfortable as a "he" and is name changing to a feminine form and is using "they". I respect that the father appears to have accepted this and is simply letting them figure it out. I'm not sure as a parent what else you could do, if you truly are capable of unconditional love.
                              Why isn't every delusion a reality? As an agoraphobic, I can tell you my feeling of terror in open spaces was as real a feeling as I ever had. If we are to pick and choose which feelings are reality, who gets to decide?

                              Mark
                              Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

                              "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

                              Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

                              Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

                              Comment

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