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  • Student debt

    Talking to my oldest son at deer camp during the weekend about this subject. He figures that the students should have to pay some of the debt but the interest is killing them. He suggested that they pay what they borrowed and the government could eat the interest.


    I sure like that idea a lot better than paying it off at 100%.

    What do you all think?

    Mark
    Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

    "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

    Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

    Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

  • #2
    Here's some statistics that should help with the discussion:
    Student Loan Debt Statistics

    Last Updated: October 26, 2022

    Report Highlights. Student loan debt in the United States totals $1.745 trillion. The debt accumulation rate is slowing, and recent analytics indicate that most consumers manage their student loan debt responsibly.
    • The outstanding federal loan balance is $1.617 trillion and accounts for 92.7% of all student loan debt.
    • 42.8 million borrowers have federal student loan debt.
    • The average federal student loan debt balance is $37,787 while the total average balance (including private loan debt) may be as high as $40,780.
    • Less than 2% of private student loans enter default as of 2021’s fourth financial quarter (2021 Q4).
    • The average public university student borrows $32,880 to attain a bachelor’s degree.

    ​For most students, the debt payoff proposed is not 100% of what they owe. My understanding is it's 10-20k depending on whether or not they were poor enough to qualify for a Pell Grant.

    For most students, this proposal will represent paying off between 25%-50% of their student loans. I think my niece and nephew each owe around 20k. They were very fortunate that they had significant family help (and one had significant academic scholarship that cut tuition to about 50% of the rack price).

    I graduated from undergrad with $1,500 in debt; law school added another $28,500 to it. I will say that debt was crushing in the early years. On average it took almost 1/2 of my salary. I still paid it back in about 8 years, rather than 10. Most of those I know who have graduated from law school in the last 20 years had 20 year terms because they owed in the 6 figures.
    I know that a lot of students don't pay attention to the debt they are accumulating. I did, to a certain degree. But not because I'm smart, just nervous. I chose my schools because of the cost (at least law school) and saved by living at home. Unfortunately many parents are saddling themselves with parent plus loans to give their kids their dream education. They are sacrificing their retirements for this. In many ways I believe the government helped cause this problem of inflated college expenses, so perhaps the government needs to offer a solution for those that got taken for a ride.

    I'm not offended by the proposal. But I haven't read up that much on it, admittedly.


    Not where I breathe, but where I love, I live...
    Robert Southwell, S.J.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 80zephyr View Post
      Talking to my oldest son at deer camp during the weekend about this subject. He figures that the students should have to pay some of the debt but the interest is killing them. He suggested that they pay what they borrowed and the government could eat the interest.


      I sure like that idea a lot better than paying it off at 100%.

      What do you all think?

      Mark
      Decent place to start figuring out how to get out of this mess.
      "Faith is nothing but a firm assent of the mind : which, if it be regulated, as is our duty, cannot be afforded to anything but upon good reason, and so cannot be opposite to it."
      -John Locke

      "It's all been melded together into one giant, authoritarian, leftist scream."
      -Newman

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by phillygirl View Post
        . In many ways I believe the government helped cause this problem of inflated college expenses, so perhaps the government needs to offer a solution for those that got taken for a ride.
        That is 100% true. I watched it start in the early 1990s. Tuition and fees at UF doubled between my Freshman/Sophomore year and my Senior year.
        "Faith is nothing but a firm assent of the mind : which, if it be regulated, as is our duty, cannot be afforded to anything but upon good reason, and so cannot be opposite to it."
        -John Locke

        "It's all been melded together into one giant, authoritarian, leftist scream."
        -Newman

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by phillygirl View Post
          Here's some statistics that should help with the discussion:
          Student Loan Debt Statistics

          Last Updated: October 26, 2022

          Report Highlights. Student loan debt in the United States totals $1.745 trillion. The debt accumulation rate is slowing, and recent analytics indicate that most consumers manage their student loan debt responsibly.
          • The outstanding federal loan balance is $1.617 trillion and accounts for 92.7% of all student loan debt.
          • 42.8 million borrowers have federal student loan debt.
          • The average federal student loan debt balance is $37,787 while the total average balance (including private loan debt) may be as high as $40,780.
          • Less than 2% of private student loans enter default as of 2021’s fourth financial quarter (2021 Q4).
          • The average public university student borrows $32,880 to attain a bachelor’s degree.

          ​For most students, the debt payoff proposed is not 100% of what they owe. My understanding is it's 10-20k depending on whether or not they were poor enough to qualify for a Pell Grant.

          For most students, this proposal will represent paying off between 25%-50% of their student loans. I think my niece and nephew each owe around 20k. They were very fortunate that they had significant family help (and one had significant academic scholarship that cut tuition to about 50% of the rack price).

          I graduated from undergrad with $1,500 in debt; law school added another $28,500 to it. I will say that debt was crushing in the early years. On average it took almost 1/2 of my salary. I still paid it back in about 8 years, rather than 10. Most of those I know who have graduated from law school in the last 20 years had 20 year terms because they owed in the 6 figures.
          I know that a lot of students don't pay attention to the debt they are accumulating. I did, to a certain degree. But not because I'm smart, just nervous. I chose my schools because of the cost (at least law school) and saved by living at home. Unfortunately many parents are saddling themselves with parent plus loans to give their kids their dream education. They are sacrificing their retirements for this. In many ways I believe the government helped cause this problem of inflated college expenses, so perhaps the government needs to offer a solution for those that got taken for a ride.

          I'm not offended by the proposal. But I haven't read up that much on it, admittedly.

          Paying off 10 or 20 thousand might be too little, too late. With the interest, it will just balloon back up if they still can't make their payments.

          If our goal as a country is to have a highly educated populace fora work force, we have to do something, I think.

          Mark
          Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

          "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

          Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

          Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 80zephyr View Post

            Paying off 10 or 20 thousand might be too little, too late. With the interest, it will just balloon back up if they still can't make their payments.

            If our goal as a country is to have a highly educated populace fora work force, we have to do something, I think.

            Mark
            Better start in elementary school and disband the NEA
            If it pays, it stays

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 80zephyr View Post

              Paying off 10 or 20 thousand might be too little, too late. With the interest, it will just balloon back up if they still can't make their payments.

              If our goal as a country is to have a highly educated populace fora work force, we have to do something, I think.

              Mark
              That's part of my issue with the proposal. Conservatives are bitching about the thought of letting the students "off the hook" for the debt they incurred. In reality, for those that are hit the hardest, this amount is paltry and really won't make a meaningful change in their ability to pay back the total debt owed. The price of education needs to come down. And students need to be more educated on what they are getting themselves into. Too few are mature enough at 17 or 18 years old to realize the real price they are paying for the fancy dorm rooms and apartments. I still feel very lucky that my college was basically "no frills" when I went. It billed itself as the least expensive Jesuit school in the country. Now, it no longer aspires to that and instead has priced itself about 5 grand below Villanova. The student population when I went was primarily middle and working class families. Now, it's upper middle class and affluent. While its reputation has certainly increased since my acceptance, it is no longer the bargain it was. I've seen in my own family the allure of the big fancy schools with their attendant big fancy price tags. I lived in an absolute dump of an apartment when I moved off campus, but we loved it. Now, students live in beautiful places that they will not be able to afford when they graduate (my niece's senior living place is a single family house with a pool in Miami...my senior apartment was a second floor apartment in a converted house...the back "porch" looked and felt like it would fall down at any moment).

              Students can "afford" this type of education and living if 1. their parents are rich (most of the students at University of Miami) or 2. they go into incredible debt to fund this. My niece is lucky in that her scholarships made the cost of Miami similar to Penn State in state tuition. But still, at around 36k a year, without significant family help, most students can't even afford that. For those that don't have that kind of help, tuition loans alone equal 144k when all is said and done. I know I'm old, but when I graduated, Penn State was about 3500 per year (my alma mater was double that). The difference was that Penn State really doesn't offer much in the way of academic scholarship assistance, whereas my alma mater, as a private school, did, making my alma mater far less expensive than if I had chosen Penn State.

              Something needs to be done.
              Not where I breathe, but where I love, I live...
              Robert Southwell, S.J.

              Comment


              • #8
                Replace the guidance counselors who push these kids into college.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Lady Marva View Post
                  Replace the guidance counselors who push these kids into college.
                  I would agree with that.

                  I have three big problems with this whole set-up:
                  1. You took out a loan and you knew what the terms were when you did it. If you chose to get a worthless degree in womynx studies or whatever, that's on you, and if you have to pay for the rest of your life working the drive-thru, that's your problem.
                  2. This is even more government spending that only perpetuates further the problem of skyrocketing college tuitions. All this really does is feed the beast even more, making the whole problem worse.
                  3. Most importantly (to me), the astounding unfairness of it all. The guy who learned how to weld or be a plumber or a diesel mechanic or whatever straight out of high school (or even in high school) and is working for a living at 20 years old is now (at least in theory; thank God that the appellate court so far has kept this at bay) on the hook to pay for some entitled brat to go play beer pong at a frat house.


                  Now, I have nothing against college itself, though I do think that a lot of them are just broken institutions. I'm delighted that my niece will be coming here to go to SCAD, and I wish her the best in her endeavors. But she's not getting a loan or a scholarship: David started saving in a 429(?) plan pretty much from the day he started working, long before he even met the future mother of his children. Obviously, not every college-bound kid has the fortunate circumstance of parents who decided to save up well in advance, but there are plenty of other options: working through school (which was VERY common when I was in college), the GI Bill, and then there are loans and some grants (which I've never entirely agreed with, but that ship has sailed a long time ago), plus, of course, scholarships, partial or full.

                  I have a bit of a problem with athletic scholarships, though I have no idea how you unwind that clock. There is definitely some good to them: lots of kids get educational opportunities that they otherwise wouldn't have a chance to get. OTOH, they are grossly abused just to sell tickets and TV time so that whatever college can just build more buildings and charge more in tuition. I think that on the whole, probably the bad outweighs the good: very, very few of these students go on to be titans of industry or whatever, and far fewer still get a career (a very short-lived one, by nature) in the NFL or the NBA or MLB. Most of them aren't actually learning anything that will help them excel in life. Johnny the running back may have had a lot of fun at Nowhere State University, but when that's done and he doesn't make the draft, if he didn't get a degree in accounting or something, but instead was just "studying" East African Lesbian Pygmy Poetry so that he can keep up his GPA, then no one is doing that kid any favors and he'll wind up a fry cook at Burger King because he doesn't even have the English language skills to work the drive-thru.

                  One way or the other, though, this whole "loan forgiveness" thing is just a road to Hell with a fresh new pavement of good intentions. We forgive student loans today, at the expense of people who work for a living and have actually paid their loans. Tomorrow, we forgive mortgages at the expense of those who rent (typically lower-income workers and the young) and those who actually did work hard, put off vacations, and paid their mortgages. The next day, it's forgiving car loans at the expense of people who saved up and paid cash for a car or don't even have a car at all or the farmer who nurses along his pickup or the trucker who has paid off his Peterbilt and is now trying to take the profit from his efforts.

                  Where does it end? This is absolutely Pandora's Box.
                  It's been ten years since that lonely day I left you
                  In the morning rain, smoking gun in hand
                  Ten lonely years but how my heart, it still remembers
                  Pray for me, momma, I'm a gypsy now

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Adam View Post



                    . We forgive student loans today, at the expense of people who work for a living and have actually paid their loans. Tomorrow, we forgive mortgages at the expense of those who rent (typically lower-income workers and the young) and those who actually did work hard, put off vacations, and paid their mortgages. The next day, it's forgiving car loans at the expense of people who saved up and paid cash for a car or don't even have a car at all or the farmer who nurses along his pickup or the trucker who has paid off his Peterbilt and is now trying to take the profit from his efforts.
                    Yeah yeah yeah! Somebody pay off my mortgage and somebody buy me a new car. Yippee yippee!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Adam View Post
                      I would agree with that.

                      I have three big problems with this whole set-up:
                      1. You took out a loan and you knew what the terms were when you did it. If you chose to get a worthless degree in womynx studies or whatever, that's on you, and if you have to pay for the rest of your life working the drive-thru, that's your problem.
                      2. This is even more government spending that only perpetuates further the problem of skyrocketing college tuitions. All this really does is feed the beast even more, making the whole problem worse.
                      3. Most importantly (to me), the astounding unfairness of it all. The guy who learned how to weld or be a plumber or a diesel mechanic or whatever straight out of high school (or even in high school) and is working for a living at 20 years old is now (at least in theory; thank God that the appellate court so far has kept this at bay) on the hook to pay for some entitled brat to go play beer pong at a frat house.


                      Now, I have nothing against college itself, though I do think that a lot of them are just broken institutions. I'm delighted that my niece will be coming here to go to SCAD, and I wish her the best in her endeavors. But she's not getting a loan or a scholarship: David started saving in a 429(?) plan pretty much from the day he started working, long before he even met the future mother of his children. Obviously, not every college-bound kid has the fortunate circumstance of parents who decided to save up well in advance, but there are plenty of other options: working through school (which was VERY common when I was in college), the GI Bill, and then there are loans and some grants (which I've never entirely agreed with, but that ship has sailed a long time ago), plus, of course, scholarships, partial or full.

                      I have a bit of a problem with athletic scholarships, though I have no idea how you unwind that clock. There is definitely some good to them: lots of kids get educational opportunities that they otherwise wouldn't have a chance to get. OTOH, they are grossly abused just to sell tickets and TV time so that whatever college can just build more buildings and charge more in tuition. I think that on the whole, probably the bad outweighs the good: very, very few of these students go on to be titans of industry or whatever, and far fewer still get a career (a very short-lived one, by nature) in the NFL or the NBA or MLB. Most of them aren't actually learning anything that will help them excel in life. Johnny the running back may have had a lot of fun at Nowhere State University, but when that's done and he doesn't make the draft, if he didn't get a degree in accounting or something, but instead was just "studying" East African Lesbian Pygmy Poetry so that he can keep up his GPA, then no one is doing that kid any favors and he'll wind up a fry cook at Burger King because he doesn't even have the English language skills to work the drive-thru.

                      One way or the other, though, this whole "loan forgiveness" thing is just a road to Hell with a fresh new pavement of good intentions. We forgive student loans today, at the expense of people who work for a living and have actually paid their loans. Tomorrow, we forgive mortgages at the expense of those who rent (typically lower-income workers and the young) and those who actually did work hard, put off vacations, and paid their mortgages. The next day, it's forgiving car loans at the expense of people who saved up and paid cash for a car or don't even have a car at all or the farmer who nurses along his pickup or the trucker who has paid off his Peterbilt and is now trying to take the profit from his efforts.

                      Where does it end? This is absolutely Pandora's Box.
                      I'm not sure. But a lot of thinking people believe that if you can help business's to the tune of billions a year, you can surely help the individual as well.

                      Mark
                      Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

                      "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

                      Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

                      Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thinking about other options...as someone who worked hard to pay off my student debt (of which I managed to acquire only about $40K, all law school, due to my parents' prudent planning for college), I do have issues with a blanket debt relief program. OTOH, as Mark said, the entire country has a vested interest in a well-educated workforce, not to mention well-educated parents of the next generation. College for all is not the answer to either of those issues, though, so any program to address that needs to be very well thought-out and not some spot relief bill to drum up votes.

                        I think I would make public college or trade school available on an asset-based sliding scale, but only for those who demonstrate 1) the ability to complete and benefit from it, and 2) willingness to take up a course of study that meets the needs of society as a whole. People could still get degrees in Medieval Eastern European Undergarments, but they'd have to pay their own way. Private institutions could give scholarships for anything they wanted to, and charge whatever the traffic will bear.

                        And this is a long-time hobbyhorse of mine: professional schools need to require a practicum component. Doctors mostly have to intern, and teachers have to student-teach, but lawyers can hang out their shingles with no training in the nuts and bolts of law, much less law practice management, In recent years (the last 25 or so, but well after I was admitted), mandatory state bar associations have required a first-year continuing education program that addresses some of that, but there's no substitute for hands-on experience, and nobody should be acquiring that experience at the expense of clients and without supervision. Same for architects and engineers. Maybe instead of 2 additional years of "general education" in undergrad before you can start focusing on your major field of study, colleges could re-tool to provide 3 years of education in your field, and a semester or 2 of internship (with placement).

                        But the biggest improvement would be to institute solid minimum qualifications, instead of admitting virtually everyone and letting real life or professional certification exams at the end of the course of study weed out those who can't cut it.
                        "Since the historic ruling, the Lovings have become icons for equality. Mildred released a statement on the 40th anniversary of the ruling in 2007: 'I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, Black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about.'." - Mildred Loving (Loving v. Virginia)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Celeste Chalfonte View Post
                          Thinking about other options...as someone who worked hard to pay off my student debt (of which I managed to acquire only about $40K, all law school, due to my parents' prudent planning for college), I do have issues with a blanket debt relief program. OTOH, as Mark said, the entire country has a vested interest in a well-educated workforce, not to mention well-educated parents of the next generation. College for all is not the answer to either of those issues, though, so any program to address that needs to be very well thought-out and not some spot relief bill to drum up votes.

                          I think I would make public college or trade school available on an asset-based sliding scale, but only for those who demonstrate 1) the ability to complete and benefit from it, and 2) willingness to take up a course of study that meets the needs of society as a whole. People could still get degrees in Medieval Eastern European Undergarments, but they'd have to pay their own way. Private institutions could give scholarships for anything they wanted to, and charge whatever the traffic will bear.

                          And this is a long-time hobbyhorse of mine: professional schools need to require a practicum component. Doctors mostly have to intern, and teachers have to student-teach, but lawyers can hang out their shingles with no training in the nuts and bolts of law, much less law practice management, In recent years (the last 25 or so, but well after I was admitted), mandatory state bar associations have required a first-year continuing education program that addresses some of that, but there's no substitute for hands-on experience, and nobody should be acquiring that experience at the expense of clients and without supervision. Same for architects and engineers. Maybe instead of 2 additional years of "general education" in undergrad before you can start focusing on your major field of study, colleges could re-tool to provide 3 years of education in your field, and a semester or 2 of internship (with placement).

                          But the biggest improvement would be to institute solid minimum qualifications, instead of admitting virtually everyone and letting real life or professional certification exams at the end of the course of study weed out those who can't cut it.
                          In Wisconsin, architectural graduates have to work for architects before they can go out on their own. Or at least they used to, when I was getting into the business.

                          Excellent post Celeste.

                          Mark
                          Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

                          "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

                          Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

                          Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Sorry but I sacrificed and worked to complete my undergrad with zero debt.
                            My daughter paid off her student debt with no help from me or the fed gov.

                            We have zero obligation to assure a well educated population other than the future hope of a good income.

                            My grand daughter enters college next year. She has secured a scholarship and we have had the talk about goals. Four years under grad. Any debt you incur belongs to you so think long and hard before signing that document.

                            Robert Francis O'Rourke, Democrat, White guy, spent ~78 million to defeat, Ted Cruz, Republican immigrant Dark guy …
                            and lost …
                            But the Republicans are racist.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              {quote] our years under grad. Any debt you incur belongs to you so think long and hard before signing that document.[/quote] Stretch out college to 4 or 5 years with work-study requirements.

                              Comment

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