Things are getting pretty ugly in the Ukraine

[Adam]

Riot police in Ukraine move in against protest camp

With stun grenades and water cannons, Ukrainian riot police moved in against a protest camp in Kiev's center Tuesday night after nine people were killed in violent street protests.

A large section of the camp has been engulfed in flames as police advance on the demonstrators.

Ukrainian police told Reuters that four police officers died in the riots and 39 sustained gunshot wounds. More than 100 others are injured, they said.

Thousands of protesters had filled Independence Square just hours before, sensing that Ukraine's political standoff was reaching a critical turning point after the deadliest violence yet in nearly three months of protests that have paralyzed the capital and the nation.

Tents were seen going up in flames as defiant protesters shouted "Glory to Ukraine!"

Opposition leader Vitali Klitschko urged the protesters to defend the camp.

"We will not go anywhere from here," Klitschko told the crowd, speaking from a stage in the square as fires burned around him, releasing huge plumes of smoke into the night sky. "This is an island of freedom and we will defend it," he said.

This is a hot mess. I'm sure Putin would much rather this not be going on during the Olympics.

I feel for these people. They're basically fighting for a choice between bad or a bit worse.

[Billy Jingo]

This is a hot mess. I'm sure Putin would much rather this not be going on during the Olympics.

I feel for these people. They're basically fighting for a choice between bad or a bit worse.

As bad as it is in in Europe (God, what a hell hole Holland is ... and don't get me started on Oslo .... *shiver*), I think Russia is probably more than a bit worse.

[Adam]

As bad as it is in in Europe (God, what a hell hole Holland is ... and don't get me started on Oslo .... *shiver*), I think Russia is probably more than a bit worse.

People make out Russia to be worse than it really is. In the grand scheme of things, the Russian government is not THAT terrible; when you compare Russia to China or Myanmar or even Vietnam, there's far worse to complain about than Russia being run buy a guy with an inflated ego on a power trip. Does it suck compared to the US or Canada or France or the UK? Yeah, it does. But by and large, people there are not actually thrown in prison for speaking out against the government or evangelizing their faith, for example, which cannot be said of a whole lot of the rest of the world.

Europe is not bad in and of itself. The EU, however, is pretty much a laughably dysfunctional government.

Neither are really good choices for the Ukraine, from the Ukranian point of view. They have a boatload of natural gas (actually, many millions of boatloads, to be more precise), they are a net food exporter, and relative to the rest of the world, their economy is growing, and has generally been on a fairly steady growth track for the last decade or so. If that country were magically transplanted to the middle of the Atlantic, they could be a very good trading partner with both the US and at least western Europe. They suffer from the geographic misfortune of nearly being landlocked, however, and they're pinched between a southern Russia that is vastly more poor (despite heaps of natural resources), generally upset by religious strife, and generally treated like a red-headed stepchild by Moscow, and some "step-states" between them and the rest of western Europe.

So they're basically left with a choice of turning toward the EU and getting into that dysfunctional economic relationship, with hopefully (for them) more trade with North America if that happens and maybe one day the EU will turn into something other than a family reunion with more than 60% of the attendees being that drunk uncle everyone tries to avoid because he's always hitting you up for money, or turning towards a Russia that will basically throw them a bone every once in a while so long as they shut up and do what they're told to, but with little chance of ever really growing their own independence.

[scott]

As bad as it is in in Europe (God, what a hell hole Holland is ... and don't get me started on Oslo .... *shiver*), I think Russia is probably more than a bit worse.

I didn't realize you were so ignorant of the problem. So tell me, how easy is it to transform the Ukraine into a Western European system and what are the steps? How long will it take and what will things be like in the interim?

[Dallas]

I've been too busy watching Venezuela explode and go HAM. What did I miss?

~Dallas

[Adam]

I've been too busy watching Venezuela explode and go HAM. What did I miss?

~Dallas

This has been an ongoing protest since back around Thanksgiving.

Short version: the protesters want Kiev to align itself with the EU, potentially even becoming a member-state. Kiev was moving, ever so slightly, in that direction, and the Putin gave them a huge infusion of rubles, so now they're aligning themselves a lot more with Moscow. Protesters now have a sad and they also have an angry.

The clash between protesters and the government in Kiev has been escalating in the last few days, and today was SHTF day, with twenty-odd people killed, several of them cops/militsia (sort of a cross between federal police and the national guard in former Soviet states). It's all gone very sideways, and almost within shouting distance of Sochi.

[Dallas]

Well, DAMN.

~Dallas

[Adam]

Things go from bad to horrific in Kiev.

Screen shot from live cam:




Live stream, at least for now. Not sure how long ABC will keep this up.

[Billy Jingo]

I didn't realize you were so ignorant of the problem.

Ignorant of the quality of life of Western Europe vs Russia?

Probably. I am sure your extensive travels in both, as well as close family you correspond with living there, can help you rid me of that ignorance.

Please proceed.

[scott]

Ignorant of the quality of life of Western Europe vs Russia?

Probably. I am sure your extensive travels in both, as well as close family you correspond with living there, can help you rid me of that ignorance.

Please proceed.

I asked a couple of questions. Care to answer them?

[Frostbit]

I asked a couple of questions. Care to answer them?

::Crickets::

[Adam]

Pictures from a friend of my brother:


Warning - graphic content.












Note: that statue is actually white granite. It's that color because of the fires in the square.