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  • #16
    Originally posted by 80zephyr View Post

    What about north America? This environment is perfectly suited to move forward. I don't believe the indians even developed a wheel.

    Mark
    Which of the 500+ culturally different "indian" cultures are you referring to?
    If it pays, it stays

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Frostbit View Post

      Which of the 500+ culturally different "indian" cultures are you referring to?
      All of them.

      Mark
      Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

      "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

      Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

      Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by 80zephyr View Post

        All of them.

        Mark
        When the Inupiak developed the skin boat large enough to hunt whales did the Apache also deserve credit?
        If it pays, it stays

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Frostbit View Post

          When the Inupiak developed the skin boat large enough to hunt whales did the Apache also deserve credit?
          If that is as far as their civilization went, none of them deserve credit.

          Mark
          Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

          "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

          Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

          Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by 80zephyr View Post

            If that is as far as their civilization went, none of them deserve credit.

            Mark
            Civilizations advance dependent on need. If the Inupiak found they no longer had the ability to survive with the tools available they would have developed others or died off as many cultures did, including European. My point is you are lumping cultures based on your definition derived mainly from the color of their skin.
            If it pays, it stays

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Frostbit View Post

              Civilizations advance dependent on need. If the Inupiak found they no longer had the ability to survive with the tools available they would have developed others or died off as many cultures did, including European. My point is you are lumping cultures based on your definition derived mainly from the color of their skin.
              If what you say is true, then all of mankind would never have developed past an indian like culture.

              Mark
              Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

              "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

              Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

              Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by 80zephyr View Post

                If what you say is true, then all of mankind would never have developed past an indian like culture.

                Mark
                Nothing wrong with that.
                If it pays, it stays

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by 80zephyr View Post

                  If that is as far as their civilization went, none of them deserve credit.

                  Mark
                  So you are the sole arbiter of credit do? That's idiotic!! As civilizations developed tools it was always based on need. Since we now have LED lights are we to no longer give Edison the credit for developing the light bulb?
                  If it pays, it stays

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Frostbit View Post

                    Nothing wrong with that.
                    I disagree. It is abundantly clear that people have benefited immensely from progress.

                    Mark
                    Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

                    "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

                    Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

                    Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Frostbit View Post

                      So you are the sole arbiter of credit do? That's idiotic!! As civilizations developed tools it was always based on need. Since we now have LED lights are we to no longer give Edison the credit for developing the light bulb?
                      If civilizations develop tools based on need, then why didn't most societies advance? Didn't they also need light, heat, transportation?

                      Mark
                      Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

                      "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

                      Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

                      Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I don't believe any Native Americans pre-Columbus had domesticated beasts of burden. No horses, oxen, donkeys, or even goats, if I recall correctly. Consequently, no wagons or chariots, oxcarts or Porgy & Bess operas.

                        But it changes everything, what they can build, how much they can farm, what they can take with them when they have to relocate.
                        • "Florida is where Woke goes to die." — Ron DeSantis.
                        • "We must make sure we don’t give platforms to those lying to our faces." — Brian Stelter, leading by example.
                        • “I have absolutely no intention of the Democrats not winning the House in November." — Nancy Pelosi, explaining power.
                        • "Don't underestimate Joe's ability to fuck things up."— Barack Obama's 1st Rule of Joe Biden.
                        • "Put aside all of these issues of concern about liberties and personal liberties and realize we have a common enemy and that common enemy is the virus." — Dr. Anthony Fauci, misquoting Pogo.
                        • "The way I see it, there's always, c'mon, there's always money. It's there." — Elizabeth Warren, explaining socialism.
                        • "The interesting thing about the Green New Deal is it wasn't originally a climate thing at all.... We really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing." — Saikat Chakrabarti, then AOC's Chief of Staff.
                        • "We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them." — CNN's Don Lemon, showing how to stop demonizing people.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 80zephyr View Post

                          If civilizations develop tools based on need, then why didn't most societies advance? Didn't they also need light, heat, transportation?

                          Mark
                          The Inupiak had seal and whale oil lights, the heat was provided from these same lights in their naturally well insulated shelters made of sod, caribou hide, and snow. Transportation was provided by foot, kayak and skin boats. It provided all the culture needed and they were happy and satisfied with it.

                          My very first village trip was in 1996 to Perryville, Alaska. The day I arrived the Father of the community health aide in his 80's was celebrating a birthday. In the culture the entire village delivers food throughout the day and everyone participates with stories, traditional dance and music (a drum). In my conversation with Mr. Kosbruk I asked him to tell me stories of his youth. It was fascinating. He grew up in sod huts. In this area of the Alaskan Peninsula they did have dog yards and used sled dogs for travel. I asked him if he was happy. He said yes. I asked him if the young people in Perryville were still happy. He said no. I asked why. His answer was simple.......TV.

                          The village council took federal funding and put in a satellite dish so now the kids could watch shows they had no understanding of that showed lifestyles they could never achieve.

                          So to you I ask. If that technological advance (TV) never happened would those kids be unhappy or would they still be learning from their elders how to survive where they lived vs. having Oprah telling them how to treat depression?

                          Could I have adapted to their old ways? Yes, but I imagine you might have an issue. Their older traditional lifestyle was actually better and more advanced for where they live than their improved lifestyle of modular HUD houses provided by the government that they can not afford to heat without subsidy.

                          You should try and learn how not to judge the world and its varied people by your own myopic looking glass. Your lens is foggy.
                          If it pays, it stays

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Frostbit View Post

                            The Inupiak had seal and whale oil lights, the heat was provided from these same lights in their naturally well insulated shelters made of sod, caribou hide, and snow. Transportation was provided by foot, kayak and skin boats. It provided all the culture needed and they were happy and satisfied with it.

                            My very first village trip was in 1996 to Perryville, Alaska. The day I arrived the Father of the community health aide in his 80's was celebrating a birthday. In the culture the entire village delivers food throughout the day and everyone participates with stories, traditional dance and music (a drum). In my conversation with Mr. Kosbruk I asked him to tell me stories of his youth. It was fascinating. He grew up in sod huts. In this area of the Alaskan Peninsula they did have dog yards and used sled dogs for travel. I asked him if he was happy. He said yes. I asked him if the young people in Perryville were still happy. He said no. I asked why. His answer was simple.......TV.

                            The village council took federal funding and put in a satellite dish so now the kids could watch shows they had no understanding of that showed lifestyles they could never achieve.

                            So to you I ask. If that technological advance (TV) never happened would those kids be unhappy or would they still be learning from their elders how to survive where they lived vs. having Oprah telling them how to treat depression?

                            Could I have adapted to their old ways? Yes, but I imagine you might have an issue. Their older traditional lifestyle was actually better and more advanced for where they live than their improved lifestyle of modular HUD houses provided by the government that they can not afford to heat without subsidy.

                            You should try and learn how not to judge the world and its varied people by your own myopic looking glass. Your lens is foggy.
                            Well said! I'm reminded of the Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. When those people lived in weather-tight homes suited to the climate, if they were cut off from "civilization" for months at a time, they were well-equipped to survive in comfort. Once they became dependent on materials flown in, trips to the nearest town with a Costco, deliveries of fuel oil, the electric grid, etc., they're actually way less self-sufficient. If they have damage to their molded-fiberglass fishing trawler, they have to take it somewhere to be fixed. Same with their truck, 4-wheeler, or snowmobile.
                            "Since the historic ruling, the Lovings have become icons for equality. Mildred released a statement on the 40th anniversary of the ruling in 2007: 'I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, Black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about.'." - Mildred Loving (Loving v. Virginia)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Frostbit View Post

                              The Inupiak had seal and whale oil lights, the heat was provided from these same lights in their naturally well insulated shelters made of sod, caribou hide, and snow. Transportation was provided by foot, kayak and skin boats. It provided all the culture needed and they were happy and satisfied with it.

                              My very first village trip was in 1996 to Perryville, Alaska. The day I arrived the Father of the community health aide in his 80's was celebrating a birthday. In the culture the entire village delivers food throughout the day and everyone participates with stories, traditional dance and music (a drum). In my conversation with Mr. Kosbruk I asked him to tell me stories of his youth. It was fascinating. He grew up in sod huts. In this area of the Alaskan Peninsula they did have dog yards and used sled dogs for travel. I asked him if he was happy. He said yes. I asked him if the young people in Perryville were still happy. He said no. I asked why. His answer was simple.......TV.

                              The village council took federal funding and put in a satellite dish so now the kids could watch shows they had no understanding of that showed lifestyles they could never achieve.

                              So to you I ask. If that technological advance (TV) never happened would those kids be unhappy or would they still be learning from their elders how to survive where they lived vs. having Oprah telling them how to treat depression?

                              Could I have adapted to their old ways? Yes, but I imagine you might have an issue. Their older traditional lifestyle was actually better and more advanced for where they live than their improved lifestyle of modular HUD houses provided by the government that they can not afford to heat without subsidy.

                              You should try and learn how not to judge the world and its varied people by your own myopic looking glass. Your lens is foggy.
                              I view the world sanely and logically. Our advances in medicine, space travel, etc., I believe are the only reasons humans could survive into the future.

                              Mark
                              Race Card: A tool of the intellectually weak and lazy when they cannot counter a logical argument or factual data.

                              "Liberals have to stop insisting that the world is what they want it to be instead of the way it is." - Bill Maher

                              Political correctness is ideological fascism. It’s the antithesis of freedom. Dr. Piper

                              Gender is not a "Social Construct", it is an outgrowth of biological reality.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by 80zephyr View Post

                                I view the world sanely and logically.

                                Mark
                                YMMV
                                If it pays, it stays

                                Comment

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