Perhaps the Marines should recruit females at Crossfit Boxes

[Frostbit]

"WASHINGTON (AP) — More than half of female Marines in boot camp can't do three pullups, the minimum standard that was supposed to take effect with the new year, prompting the Marine Corps to delay the requirement, part of the process of equalizing physical standards to integrate women into combat jobs."

LINK

Joyce could have qualified at 59 years old under that criteria.

[Gingersnap]

I think the problem is that female Marines are doing a very large amount of PT at that point. Many hours a day - not a focused approach for a couple of hours a few times a week.

The problem with female fitness in the military is that women sustain a much larger number of career-ending physical problems just in training even with lowered standards compared to their male counterparts.

This probably comes down to innate sex differences. Women have smaller circulatory systems, thinner bones, less upper body muscle mass, smaller lungs and hearts, and so on. Women are superior at many endurance tests, pain tests, g-forces, etc. We are by and large not as good at explosive effort, running/jogging (for mechanical reasons), or day-after-day repetitive stress (as with jogging with a pack, etc.).

This doesn't mean that women are physically inferior but more that we shine in areas that aren't of real importance to military concerns. We starve a lot better, we maximize nutrients better than men, we endure cold better, we can hold our breath better, we live longer, and so on. These aren't things that advance contemporary military goals.

[Frostbit]

I think the problem is that female Marines are doing a very large amount of PT at that point. Many hours a day - not a focused approach for a couple of hours a few times a week.

The problem with female fitness in the military is that women sustain a much larger number of career-ending physical problems just in training even with lowered standards compared to their male counterparts.

This probably comes down to innate sex differences. Women have smaller circulatory systems, thinner bones, less upper body muscle mass, smaller lungs and hearts, and so on. Women are superior at many endurance tests, pain tests, g-forces, etc. We are by and large not as good at explosive effort, running/jogging (for mechanical reasons), or day-after-day repetitive stress (as with jogging with a pack, etc.).

This doesn't mean that women are physically inferior but more that we shine in areas that aren't of real importance to military concerns. We starve a lot better, we maximize nutrients better than men, we endure cold better, we can hold our breath better, we live longer, and so on. These aren't things that advance contemporary military goals.

You forgot ironing. Women definitely iron better.

[phillygirl]

You forgot ironing. Women definitely iron better.

Not this woman.

[phillygirl]

I think the problem is that female Marines are doing a very large amount of PT at that point. Many hours a day - not a focused approach for a couple of hours a few times a week.

The problem with female fitness in the military is that women sustain a much larger number of career-ending physical problems just in training even with lowered standards compared to their male counterparts.

This probably comes down to innate sex differences. Women have smaller circulatory systems, thinner bones, less upper body muscle mass, smaller lungs and hearts, and so on. Women are superior at many endurance tests, pain tests, g-forces, etc. We are by and large not as good at explosive effort, running/jogging (for mechanical reasons), or day-after-day repetitive stress (as with jogging with a pack, etc.).

This doesn't mean that women are physically inferior but more that we shine in areas that aren't of real importance to military concerns. We starve a lot better, we maximize nutrients better than men, we endure cold better, we can hold our breath better, we live longer, and so on. These aren't things that advance contemporary military goals.

I would like to hear from current or former military on this. With the modernization of warfare, I'm sure there are specific areas that the above listed physical skills would serve the military well. In particular, I'm thinking diving, shooting, etc.

[scott]

I think the problem is that female Marines are doing a very large amount of PT at that point. Many hours a day - not a focused approach for a couple of hours a few times a week.

No. Just, no.

It's that they think they can get away with it. LOTS of WMs are L-A-Z-Y.

The problem with female fitness in the military is that women sustain a much larger number of career-ending physical problems just in training even with lowered standards compared to their male counterparts.

Only because men are screened for that sort of thing. Overweight women are allowed as long as they show potential to one day meet some very loose standard.

This probably comes down to innate sex differences. Women have smaller circulatory systems, thinner bones, less upper body muscle mass, smaller lungs and hearts, and so on. Women are superior at many endurance tests, pain tests, g-forces, etc. We are by and large not as good at explosive effort, running/jogging (for mechanical reasons), or day-after-day repetitive stress (as with jogging with a pack, etc.).

This doesn't mean that women are physically inferior but more that we shine in areas that aren't of real importance to military concerns. We starve a lot better, we maximize nutrients better than men, we endure cold better, we can hold our breath better, we live longer, and so on. These aren't things that advance contemporary military goals.

There are more female college athletes than Marines.

[Gingersnap]

You forgot ironing. Women definitely iron better.

It's like model train collecting (men hugely superior at this). We simply care more about ironing or I do, anyway.

[Gingersnap]

No. Just, no.


There are more female college athletes than Marines.

Elite college athletes can't be compared to Marine training. Seriously? You would make this argument? It's absurd.

Elite college athletes train for a sport from childhood and they do it well. Marines are drawn from all walks of life, they don't train for it starting in middle school, and they don't get constant management and physical therapy for minor injuries.

Elite college athletes who run are not required to put in 20+ hours a week hauling freight. Elite college athletes who play tennis or lacrosse or who do power-lifting are not required to dig trenches, run, crawl, or perform other tasks (over and over) that fall way outside their training. All Marines do that because hardly any Marines are elite athletes.

[Adam]

Elite college athletes can't be compared to Marine training. Seriously? You would make this argument? It's absurd.

Elite college athletes train for a sport from childhood and they do it well. Marines are drawn from all walks of life, they don't train for it starting in middle school, and they don't get constant management and physical therapy for minor injuries.

Elite college athletes who run are not required to put in 20+ hours a week hauling freight. Elite college athletes who play tennis or lacrosse or who do power-lifting are not required to dig trenches, run, crawl, or perform other tasks (over and over) that fall way outside their training. All Marines do that because hardly any Marines are elite athletes.

He didn't say elite.

[Gingersnap]

He didn't say elite.

They are all elite. Not Olympic contenders but certainly elite if they have an athletic scholarship or make a non-fun league team.

The point is that comparing life-long specialized young athletes to young Marine recruits is pointless. Marines who have played varsity football or farm league baseball or who have almost gotten to State in swimming or gymnastics or who haven't done much more than jogging or mild resistance training or yoga are the norm.

They are not athletes whose (partially) paid education depends on specialized athletic performance.

I know Marines. Whatever they are now, they were not that in high school or college. They were ordinary, non-athletic people who became incredibly strong and fit as a result of Marine training.

It's worth noting that a significant number of male Marines drop out during boot camp due to the physical demands. This isn't about being male or having some kind of mental "toughness" that's sex-specific. It's just a damn hard course that only very young, fit, and emotionally adaptable people can navigate.

Old (30+), small, weaker, dumber, or emotionally fragile people can't make the cut. That's not a insult to people who can't do it or who don't want to do it - it's just the reality. No harm, no foul.

[scott]

Elite college athletes can't be compared to Marine training. Seriously? You would make this argument? It's absurd.

Elite college athletes train for a sport from childhood and they do it well. Marines are drawn from all walks of life, they don't train for it starting in middle school, and they don't get constant management and physical therapy for minor injuries.

Elite college athletes who run are not required to put in 20+ hours a week hauling freight. Elite college athletes who play tennis or lacrosse or who do power-lifting are not required to dig trenches, run, crawl, or perform other tasks (over and over) that fall way outside their training. All Marines do that because hardly any Marines are elite athletes.

I never said "elite," that's your term.

I'm quite familiar with the training of college athletes and WMs. The physical demands are similar except at the very top levels. We're not talking about having some elite standards here, we're talking about the ability to do three pull-ups.

[scott]

They are all elite. Not Olympic contenders but certainly elite if they have an athletic scholarship or make a non-fun league team.

The point is that comparing life-long specialized young athletes to young Marine recruits is pointless. Marines who have played varsity football or farm league baseball or who have almost gotten to State in swimming or gymnastics or who haven't done much more than jogging or mild resistance training or yoga are the norm.

They are not athletes whose (partially) paid education depends on specialized athletic performance.

I know Marines. Whatever they are now, they were not that in high school or college. They were ordinary, non-athletic people who became incredibly strong and fit as a result of Marine training.

It's worth noting that a significant number of male Marines drop out during boot camp due to the physical demands. This isn't about being male or having some kind of mental "toughness" that's sex-specific. It's just a damn hard course that only very young, fit, and emotionally adaptable people can navigate.

Old (30+), small, weaker, dumber, or emotionally fragile people can't make the cut. That's not a insult to people who can't do it or who don't want to do it - it's just the reality. No harm, no foul.

Most female college athletes are not specialists, they are mildly talented people who are in shape and fill a Title IX quota. They get the scholarships because the football or basketball money is there and can't be spent on anything else. I'm not talking about the cream of the crop competitors.

While you are correct that most Marines were never very athletic in previous lives, they are still able to achieve high standards because the standards are enforced and those who can't cut it are washed out. Most men who make it to Boot Camp graduate, though. It would be the same for women if the standard are enforced, most would step up their efforts.

Anybody young and in good health can get to three pull-ups in as many months by spending 5 minutes a day training. It's really just not that hard.

[Novaheart]

How many terrorists and suicide bombers can meet the US military vanity standards?

[Gingersnap]

I never said "elite," that's your term.

I'm quite familiar with the training of college athletes and WMs. The physical demands are similar except at the very top levels. We're not talking about having some elite standards here, we're talking about the ability to do three pull-ups.

College athletes are elite compared to the millions of people of similar age who have never even been in a regular program of fitness or physical teamwork. It's not like most kids work on the farm or take P.E.three days a week now.

Doing 3 pull-ups isn't the issue really. It's the high level of training injuries that lead to discharge. Even with lower standards, the women have a lot more of these injuries than the men have. I don't know how you can change that without putting combat troops in an unreliable fitness situation.

[scott]

College athletes are elite compared to the millions of people of similar age who have never even been in a regular program of fitness or physical teamwork. It's not like most kids work on the farm or take P.E.three days a week now.

Doing 3 pull-ups isn't the issue really. It's the high level of training injuries that lead to discharge. Even with lower standards, the women have a lot more of these injuries than the men have. I don't know how you can change that without putting combat troops in an unreliable fitness situation.

Make the standards realistic and enforce them.