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Could Francis be the first Pope of the Atheists?

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  • Could Francis be the first Pope of the Atheists?

    "Peace is a daily commitment. It is a homemade peace," he said.

    He said that people of other religions were also praying for peace, and - departing from his prepared text - he urged atheists to join forces with believers.

    "I invite even non-believers to desire peace. (Join us) with your desire, a desire that widens the heart. Let us all unite, either with prayer or with desire, but everyone, for peace," he said, drawing sustained applause from the crowd



    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/pope-...#ixzz2oYNjiEA8

    I really like this guy. He's not relying on some effort to reform the Church to change the narrative, he's bypassing that entire bureaucracy and just going direct to the world. He's got a whole lot of non-believers listening.
    "Faith is nothing but a firm assent of the mind : which, if it be regulated, as is our duty, cannot be afforded to anything but upon good reason, and so cannot be opposite to it."
    -John Locke

    "It's all been melded together into one giant, authoritarian, leftist scream."
    -Newman

  • #2
    The irony of the Left loving the guy so much is that he really is the Ronald Reagan of the Catholic Church: he talks right past the media and delivers his message directly to the people. And the Left strangely loves him for it, even though they have absolutely hated anyone who has done that in the past, to include both Reagan and Jesus: the Left absolutely would not accept someone who spoke out against government control these days.

    My guess is that everything will change when Francis starts pointing out how government control is not The Way, and I suspect that Francis will do so soon. The Left will hate him then. He suddenly won't be a "true Christian" any more when that happens.
    It's been ten years since that lonely day I left you
    In the morning rain, smoking gun in hand
    Ten lonely years but how my heart, it still remembers
    Pray for me, momma, I'm a gypsy now

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by scott View Post
      I really like this guy. He's not relying on some effort to reform the Church to change the narrative, he's bypassing that entire bureaucracy and just going direct to the world. He's got a whole lot of non-believers listening.
      I like him too. I am wondering, however, how much the "old school" Catholics like him. I had a fairly heated discussion with my uncle last week about him. When I asked him what he thought about the new Pope (he's charismatic Catholic and very into his faith) he acknowledged that he hadn't read much about him yet, BUT yada yada yada, homosexuality, yada yada yada. I interrupted him several times to tell him that he really needed to read the Pope's actual words, and how I didn't think he was changing doctrine at all, just refocusing where our emphasis as Christians should be in terms of following Christ's life, etc. etc.

      His response kept being "yes, BUT"....yada yada yada. We actually ended up in a pretty heated debate about tithing, the riches of the Church (you've clearly influenced me on that one!) etc. It was very interesting to me. My mother is not nearly as faithful a person as her brother (he does prison outreach, is a eucharist minister, etc) but both of them have been involved in Bible study and so the debate got interesting for me, as my mother is far more socially liberal when it comes to the gay marriage issue.

      I just thought it may be telling in that the over 70 conservative crowd my not be getting the Pope's true message and I suspect that their allegiance to Pope JP II may interfere somewhat with their acceptance of Pope Francis. Even my mother can not really have a conversation about Pope Francis without swinging back to her admiration for JP II.

      Pope Francis may very well be our generation's Pope.
      Not where I breathe, but where I love, I live...
      Robert Southwell, S.J.

      Comment


      • #4
        For good or ill, American Catholics are pretty immune to papal directives of any kind. A lot of them are consumers of Catholicism in the way that people are consumers of Google or Microsoft. They want the company to be good and to say and do vaguely "good" things. They like it when the CEO is smart AND friendly.

        However, they are either amused or outraged when the company demands that the consumer use the product in a predefined way. They simply ignore all that contractual stuff.
        "Alexa, slaughter the fatted calf."

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by phillygirl View Post
          I like him too. I am wondering, however, how much the "old school" Catholics like him. I had a fairly heated discussion with my uncle last week about him. When I asked him what he thought about the new Pope (he's charismatic Catholic and very into his faith) he acknowledged that he hadn't read much about him yet, BUT yada yada yada, homosexuality, yada yada yada. I interrupted him several times to tell him that he really needed to read the Pope's actual words, and how I didn't think he was changing doctrine at all, just refocusing where our emphasis as Christians should be in terms of following Christ's life, etc. etc.

          His response kept being "yes, BUT"....yada yada yada. We actually ended up in a pretty heated debate about tithing, the riches of the Church (you've clearly influenced me on that one!) etc. It was very interesting to me. My mother is not nearly as faithful a person as her brother (he does prison outreach, is a eucharist minister, etc) but both of them have been involved in Bible study and so the debate got interesting for me, as my mother is far more socially liberal when it comes to the gay marriage issue.

          I just thought it may be telling in that the over 70 conservative crowd my not be getting the Pope's true message and I suspect that their allegiance to Pope JP II may interfere somewhat with their acceptance of Pope Francis. Even my mother can not really have a conversation about Pope Francis without swinging back to her admiration for JP II.

          Pope Francis may very well be our generation's Pope.
          Plenty of the old school types don't like him, but that's more about JP II as you said. One thing is true though, a new radical direction isn't causing them to leave the Church en masse and that's long been the justification for slow change.
          "Faith is nothing but a firm assent of the mind : which, if it be regulated, as is our duty, cannot be afforded to anything but upon good reason, and so cannot be opposite to it."
          -John Locke

          "It's all been melded together into one giant, authoritarian, leftist scream."
          -Newman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Gingersnap View Post
            For good or ill, American Catholics are pretty immune to papal directives of any kind. A lot of them are consumers of Catholicism in the way that people are consumers of Google or Microsoft. They want the company to be good and to say and do vaguely "good" things. They like it when the CEO is smart AND friendly.

            However, they are either amused or outraged when the company demands that the consumer use the product in a predefined way. They simply ignore all that contractual stuff.
            Yes, probably pretty accurate. Most American Catholics are "born" Catholic and identify as such because their family is/was Catholic. It's a ritual more than it is a way of life. But then there are those that include it in their education and they generally have stronger beliefs and opinions on the actual doctrine than others.

            For me, while I was "born" Catholic, I was a public, and therefore my education during my youth was more of a surface education through CCD. I didn't truly investigate the teachings until I was in college, when I went to a Catholic University. The older I get the more interested I am in the details of the faith.

            It is also very interesting to me that Catholics are much less familiar with the Bible, as Bible "study" is not a focus in the Church as much as it is in Protestant sects. I do think that is changing somewhat, however, as there are now many Bible study groups within the Catholic Church and the Catholic doctrine seems, to me, to be disseminated much more via other channels.
            Not where I breathe, but where I love, I live...
            Robert Southwell, S.J.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by scott View Post
              Plenty of the old school types don't like him, but that's more about JP II as you said. One thing is true though, a new radical direction isn't causing them to leave the Church en masse and that's long been the justification for slow change.
              But we haven't had a new radical direction yet.

              That was my point with my uncle...there is nothing new about what Pope Francis is saying, it's just the way he's saying things and how he's doing things that is viewed as radical by the media. He's his own best publicist, in my opinion. That doesn't mean he's not sincere or authentic, just that he appears to be a very likeable, humble man (akin to Pope JP II) and his Jesuit roots are definitely showing.
              Not where I breathe, but where I love, I live...
              Robert Southwell, S.J.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Adam View Post
                The irony of the Left loving the guy so much is that he really is the Ronald Reagan of the Catholic Church: he talks right past the media and delivers his message directly to the people. And the Left strangely loves him for it, even though they have absolutely hated anyone who has done that in the past, to include both Reagan and Jesus: the Left absolutely would not accept someone who spoke out against government control these days.

                My guess is that everything will change when Francis starts pointing out how government control is not The Way, and I suspect that Francis will do so soon. The Left will hate him then. He suddenly won't be a "true Christian" any more when that happens.
                Thing is Francis is trying to reach out to the very people that some on the right don't like. I'm not sure if Reagan did that. In fact, I keep thinking he's the one that got the religious right so wrapped up in the Republican Party to the point that people who may lean right in some areas don't want to vote Republican.

                on edit: It's really about the feeling of inclusivism, which I'm sorry to say that a lot of outspoken conservatives are not good at. Sorry, but a lot aren't. I'm actually not trying to be mean here. The RCC is actually stereotyped as being exclusive. Consequently, the Pope has gotten lots of Catholics to come back.
                Last edited by Lanie; Thursday, December 26, 2013, 2:48 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Lanie View Post
                  Thing is Francis is trying to reach out to the very people that some on the right don't like. I'm not sure if Reagan did that. In fact, I keep thinking he's the one that got the religious right so wrapped up in the Republican Party to the point that people who may lean right in some areas don't want to vote Republican.

                  on edit: It's really about the feeling of inclusivism, which I'm sorry to say that a lot of outspoken conservatives are not good at. Sorry, but a lot aren't. I'm actually not trying to be mean here. The RCC is actually stereotyped as being exclusive. Consequently, the Pope has gotten lots of Catholics to come back.
                  Matthew 10:34-37

                  There is a purpose to Christianity that transcends politics, inclusiveness isn't supposed achieved by throwing out Jesus' teachings.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bob Loblaw 3.0 View Post
                    Matthew 10:34-37

                    There is a purpose to Christianity that transcends politics, inclusiveness isn't supposed achieved by throwing out Jesus' teachings.
                    And what were those teaching with regards to homosexuals?
                    Colonel Vogel : What does the diary tell you that it doesn't tell us?

                    Professor Henry Jones : It tells me, that goose-stepping morons like yourself should try *reading* books instead of *burning* them!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Billy Jingo View Post
                      And what were those teaching with regards to homosexuals?
                      Are you trying to catch me with a gotcha "Jesus never directly addressed that sin" question?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bob Loblaw 3.0 View Post
                        Are you trying to catch me with a gotcha "Jesus never directly addressed that sin" question?
                        We both know He never addressed it.


                        It was a rhetorical question. You can answer it if you like. I like to answer rhetorical questions.
                        Colonel Vogel : What does the diary tell you that it doesn't tell us?

                        Professor Henry Jones : It tells me, that goose-stepping morons like yourself should try *reading* books instead of *burning* them!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Billy Jingo View Post
                          We both know He never addressed it.


                          It was a rhetorical question. You can answer it if you like. I like to answer rhetorical questions.
                          He didn't address a lot of sins directly. His audience was the Jews, and that wasn't one of their issues. He did preach on things that were there issues - mostly self-righteousness and hypocrisy. He also didn't need to address that issue because they already knew what God thought of it, because they knew what the law said - and they were still living under the Old Testament law until His atonement.

                          Paul, on the other hand, did talk a lot about the sins in which his audience were participating - as his ministry was to the gentiles.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lanie View Post
                            The RCC is actually stereotyped as being exclusive. Consequently, the Pope has gotten lots of Catholics to come back.
                            Well, there's no evidence of that as yet. If it can be shown that more Catholics are both attending weekly mass and going to confession more along with curbing their sexual enthusiasm outside of marriage, then we can say that this pope has gotten more Catholics back into the Church.

                            Time will tell but it's too soon.
                            "Alexa, slaughter the fatted calf."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lanie View Post
                              Thing is Francis is trying to reach out to the very people that some on the right don't like. I'm not sure if Reagan did that. In fact, I keep thinking he's the one that got the religious right so wrapped up in the Republican Party to the point that people who may lean right in some areas don't want to vote Republican.

                              on edit: It's really about the feeling of inclusivism, which I'm sorry to say that a lot of outspoken conservatives are not good at. Sorry, but a lot aren't. I'm actually not trying to be mean here. The RCC is actually stereotyped as being exclusive. Consequently, the Pope has gotten lots of Catholics to come back.
                              You have no fucking idea what you are talking about.

                              How old were you when Regan was president?

                              When was the last time the so called 'RELIGIOUS RIGHT' came out for a Democrat?

                              Brain dead shit.
                              Robert Francis O'Rourke, Democrat, White guy, spent ~78 million to defeat, Ted Cruz, Republican immigrant Dark guy …
                              and lost …
                              But the Republicans are racist.

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